Electioneering has started

[GillsBluenose]

You can come out with this stuff as much as you like. I’m sure you feel that ‘sovereignty’ is worth anything. The polls suggest that people are coming to the conclusion that it isn’t worth it. Having brexiteers constantly saying “Ooh, look at Germany” cuts very little ice. Visit Germany and it very obviously isn’t broken. You’d have to be deaf, dumb and blind to think Britain isn’t. If you want me to list the things that are, I’d gladly do so but it would actually take me the rest of the day.

"It very obviously isn't broken"? Probably not, if that is how you choose to interpret it and that is your mindset. If you wish to ignore figures, stats, etc, there is no debate to be had.

But do you think there is a bigger powerhouse in the EU that has taken over from Germany? If you are trying to slag off your own country as you are determined to do, is there a more testing comparison to be had within the EU?

I have always taken the fact that the EU have always thought it is fair and equitable for only Germany, France, Italy and the UK to make substantial contributions to the EU budget was because they had the biggest and most dynamic economies.

Maybe the fact is that Germany's economy is not stagnant, simply because you don't see it that way, even if most of their own economists think it is.

If the UK is broken at all, it is due to inequality and that has been the case from way before the EU referendum.

 

[ThreeSixes]

As someone who has worked in both Brixton and Tower Hamlets I can safely say I never encountered anything like a ‘no go’ area. In both jobs I needed to be in contact with local people. Funny thing is when you get to know people they turn out to be the same. There were bad apples in terms of crime, but I was never once treated or felt under threat. In both areas I often finished meetings late at night and needed to walk to either my car or public transport, so I think I’m reasonably well qualified to speak.

There was a murder in Brixton this week and a murder in Tower Hamlets last month, but fair enough. I work in Newham, and don't personally feel unsafe either, but I'm not a white woman wearing a skirt or a Muslim woman not wearing a headscarf so i don't think I can say I'm well qualified. I was just pointing out the absurdity of a poster sarcastically saying he should feel unsafe, when Bromley is THREE percent Muslim!!

 

[jogills]

The North East has the highest murder rate in the UK, significantly higher than London. I have no idea of it's ethnic mix but perhaps someone can help.

 

[Therealwaldo]

"It very obviously isn't broken"? Probably not, if that is how you choose to interpret it and that is your mindset. If you wish to ignore figures, stats, etc, there is no debate to be had.

But do you think there is a bigger powerhouse in the EU that has taken over from Germany? If you are trying to slag off your own country as you are determined to do, is there a more testing comparison to be had within the EU?

I have always taken the fact that the EU have always thought it is fair and equitable for only Germany, France, Italy and the UK to make substantial contributions to the EU budget was because they had the biggest and most dynamic economies.

Maybe the fact is that Germany's economy is not stagnant, simply because you don't see it that way, even if most of their own economists think it is.

If the UK is broken at all, it is due to inequality and that has been the case from way before the EU referendum.

Recognising reality is not “slagging off”. Germany’s starting position is much higher than ours in terms of GDP per head. So we are playing catch up. Just because Germany is currently facing a headwind (because of their past energy decisions) it doesn’t mean we can make any comparison that suggests they’re struggling in the way we are. Their health service isn’t in crisis, their transport system isn’t in the state ours is with our astronomical fares, town centres aren’t semi derelict in the way ours are etc etc etc etc. We originally joined the EU (EEC then) because we perceived ourselves as the sick man of Europe. On many measures we had narrowed that gap only now to have put that process into reverse. That’s why we have the biggest numbers polling that leaving the EU was a mistake.

 

[MedwayModernist]

There was a murder in Brixton this week and a murder in Tower Hamlets last month, but fair enough. I work in Newham, and don't personally feel unsafe either, but I'm not a white woman wearing a skirt or a Muslim woman not wearing a headscarf so i don't think I can say I'm well qualified. I was just pointing out the absurdity of a poster sarcastically saying he should feel unsafe, when Bromley is THREE percent Muslim!!

So it's just muslims that are the problem and not other races?

Btw the Bromley non white percentage is 23% and Medway is 15%.

Crime rate is 108/1000 in Med, and in Bromley Borough it's 68/1000.

So perhaps race isn't really the issue.

 

[Gills 58]

The North East has the highest murder rate in the UK, significantly higher than London. I have no idea of it's ethnic mix but perhaps someone can help.

It must be full of blacks and muslims then.

Yes, I am being sarcastic.

Just got back safely again to my home in London in spite of it being a no go area, I hear.

 

[PuB]

Where did I say "no mess".
(...and haven't voted Conservative for a decade.)

There are plenty of "messes" around:
- from uncontrolled, mass immigration putting up the cost of housing - so the cost of everything
- wasteful, over-spending "government"
- higher taxes (to pay for a Lockdown that Labour wanted harder, longer and would have cost another £ 100 billion)
- constant attacks on free speech, not defended by this Government.

But which "mess" directly results from Brexit ?


"What Brexit benefits you’d miss if we rejoined the EU tomorrow?"
Easy.
1. The ability to berate my MP for making or not making some law.
Knowing that he could speak on the matter multiple times with some chance of influencing.
And ultimately vote on the matter.
i.e. not saying:
"Sorry. I can't do anything. It's an EU competence.(despite it seeming an internal matter)"

2. Not paying £££ billions of taxpayers' money....for what exactly ?

3. Not being locked into a HUGE annual trade-deficit because of being tied to EU regulations and behind EU tariffs.

1) Oh ok, so there’s a situation where you can ‘blame’ your MP about something because he no longer has the EU as an excuse. That suggests nothing is wrong…

2) I don’t know what that means, we are in recession and we can all see services are absolutely on their knees. Including the NHS, elderly care, social service provision, schools, roads, public transport, every local council etc etc

3) If you want to talk about trade deficit or EU regulations then; downgrading regulations reduces our ability to trade with (erm) our closest trading partner the EU. We are so free of all those pesky EU tariffs that we now have a GDP trading position 5% lower than when we were in the EU.

Go and talk to any import/export business in this country and they’ll tell you the same. Go and talk to farmers and they’ll tell you they can’t get the labour they used to. Talk to people in the City of London and realise how much the UK has given away.

And then when you’ve done that talk to ordinary people on the street, in supermarkets, in their homes and ask them if they feel better off after 14 years of Tory rule and Brexit.

Enough is enough.

 

[chris who]

Part of the Brexit problem is that the promise was it would be the cure for everything to do with our country.As result many who voted for it are disappointed .The end result is that those adversely affected are now very much on the other side.Those who were persuaded by the NHS rubbish on the side of the bus are also now feeling conned.
So those who still believe in Brexit are now in the minority and fighting a losing battle.As the Tories will find when they finally call the election.
Yes was a country voted for Brexit but we all voted for a conservative government.On both counts especially the later the majority have turned against the previous decision.
You can win elections with lies .But in the end those lies catch up you.

 

[GillsBluenose]

And then when you’ve done that talk to ordinary people on the street, in supermarkets, in their homes and ask them if they feel better off after 14 years of Tory rule and Brexit.

Enough is enough.

That is the typical whinge of bitter remainers. Lump Tory rule in with Brexit when they are 2 very different things.

They talk sarcastically about "sunlit uplands" just because the most eccentric Tory MP came up with that. I must have missed the sunlit uplands that we were enjoying in the EU back before we left only 3 years ago (11 of the Tory years were within the EU). I must have imagined at least 3 recessions we went through while we were a member.

Now is no different to a decade ago. For every area in the country where there is struggle, there is another of affluence and opulence. You can't switch on the telly without seeing another property programme with a youngish couple (often in "recruitment") having a budget of at least half a mil. You can't drive down any motorway without seeing gleaming luxury cars with the latest number plates. I don't remember that in the 1970s.

What the Tories have done is create the biggest tax burden in history on the most average earners and taken it off the most affluent while starving public services, and depressingly I can not see Starmer changing that.

The short sightedness is proven in that however rich you are, you have to use the same A&E and drive on the same potholed roads. Unless you hire private security, you rely on the same police. You are going to have the same wait for your waste to be collected. Tax cuts are really going to solve those issues, aren't they?

No, Germany does not have the same health service funding issues, but I didn't know that their system was free and totally publicly funded. That is what would make it comparable.

 

[ThreeSixes]

The North East has the highest murder rate in the UK, significantly higher than London. I have no idea of it's ethnic mix but perhaps someone can help.

Use the internet, it won't take long!

I found that in 2018 3% of the UK population was black, whilst 13% of the murder suspects in the UK were black (more than 4 times more)

Black murder victims and suspects: London v UK

Black murder victims and suspects: London v UK

news.sky.com

 

[ThreeSixes]

Just got back safely again to my home in London in spite of it being a no go area, I hear.

You'll be OK. As well as being the whitest London borough, Bromley is also one of the lowest London boroughs for knife crime

Full list of the London boroughs with the highest and lowest knife crime rates

London saw a sharp increase in knife crime offences over the past year

www.mylondon.news

 

[chris who]

That is the typical whinge of bitter remainers. Lump Tory rule in with Brexit when they are 2 very different things.

They talk sarcastically about "sunlit uplands" just because the most eccentric Tory MP came up with that. I must have missed the sunlit uplands that we were enjoying in the EU back before we left only 3 years ago (11 of the Tory years were within the EU). I must have imagined at least 3 recessions we went through while we were a member.

Now is no different to a decade ago. For every area in the country where there is struggle, there is another of affluence and opulence. You can't switch on the telly without seeing another property programme with a youngish couple (often in "recruitment") having a budget of at least half a mil. You can't drive down any motorway without seeing gleaming luxury cars with the latest number plates. I don't remember that in the 1970s.

What the Tories have done is create the biggest tax burden in history on the most average earners and taken it off the most affluent while starving public services, and depressingly I can not see Starmer changing that.

The short sightedness is proven in that however rich you are, you have to use the same A&E and drive on the same potholed roads. Unless you hire private security, you rely on the same police. You are going to have the same wait for your waste to be collected. Tax cuts are really going to solve those issues, aren't they?

No, Germany does not have the same health service funding issues, but I didn't know that their system was free and totally publicly funded. That is what would make it comparable.

The Tories are totally at fault on Brexit.They drove it . Initially Cameron wanted the vote to fix divisions in his party.Then they drove through a hard Brexit dispite saying getting a deal would be free and easy .
Labour would have had a more realistic approach and will not spend years fighting with each other and the EU . Looking down at everyone who is not a super rich Tory.Will see the worst defeat for any government party for very many decades.
They have shown their true colours in the last few years and the hatred for them will give those of us who are not Labour the spur to vote tactically to remove this shower hopefully for ever .
Any decent Tories were removed by Boris.That also probably removed very many decent Tory voters .The party now is a tiny runt and they will squeal very loudly when they die in a few months time.

 

[shotshy]

1) Oh ok, so there’s a situation where you can ‘blame’ your MP about something because he no longer has the EU as an excuse. That suggests nothing is wrong…

2) I don’t know what that means, we are in recession and we can all see services are absolutely on their knees. Including the NHS, elderly care, social service provision, schools, roads, public transport, every local council etc etc

3) If you want to talk about trade deficit or EU regulations then; downgrading regulations reduces our ability to trade with (erm) our closest trading partner the EU. We are so free of all those pesky EU tariffs that we now have a GDP trading position 5% lower than when we were in the EU.

Go and talk to any import/export business in this country and they’ll tell you the same. Go and talk to farmers and they’ll tell you they can’t get the labour they used to. Talk to people in the City of London and realise how much the UK has given away.

And then when you’ve done that talk to ordinary people on the street, in supermarkets, in their homes and ask them if they feel better off after 14 years of Tory rule and Brexit.

Enough is enough.

The value of goods and services exports into the EU countries is higher than it’s ever been.
Simply google it.
Goods are slightly down
Services are significantly up
Whether that continues remains to be seen but since leaving the EU, it doesn’t seem to have made much of a difference trade wise.
Some small cheese maker from Cheshire hits the headlines for the periodicals who wish to run negative stories to appease their readership, but the facts are somewhat different.
Brexit was never going to be as good as some hoped and as bad as some predicted.
Personally, I don’t see many negatives.
It’s just a bit different.

 

[chris who]

The value of goods and services exports into the EU countries is higher than it’s ever been.
Simply google it.
Goods are slightly down
Services are significantly up
Whether that continues remains to be seen but since leaving the EU, it doesn’t seem to have made much of a difference trade wise.
Some small cheese maker from Cheshire hits the headlines for the periodicals who wish to run negative stories to appease their readership, but the facts are somewhat different.
Brexit was never going to be as good as some hoped and as bad as some predicted.
Personally, I don’t see many negatives.
It’s just a bit different.

Brexit customs checking and all the delays that goes with them have not really begun.We have not got the space or the staff to check all that we should.Paperwork is needed though.The vote was back in 2016 eight years later we still haven't got Brexit operating.So no in many ways it has not happened in the UK . Meanwhile our goods are checked on arrival in Europe.So no wonder our exporters are hopping mad at a two tier system where our exports are the victims of.the EU countries doing things properly.While we.are still.trying to work out how we can check anything properly.

 

[GillsBluenose]

The Tories are totally at fault on Brexit.They drove it . Initially Cameron wanted the vote to fix divisions in his party.Then they drove through a hard Brexit dispite saying getting a deal would be free and easy .
Labour would have had a more realistic approach and will not spend years fighting with each other and the EU .

I have always wondered what this "hard Brexit" is. And what a closer relationship really means?

Originally it was rumoured that it was staying in the single market or customs union but Starmer has absolutely ruled both of those out. In any case, for a start the EU made it clear that the UK could not just cherry pick what it liked and also the single market would mean accepting free movement of people whereas the customs union would prevent making independent trade deals with other countries.

To be fair to the Tories, I don't think I have seen any signs that they have been fighting with the EU, so what measures could Labour take that would represent a closer relationship?

 

[chris who]

I have always wondered what this "hard Brexit" is. And what a closer relationship really means?

Originally it was rumoured that it was staying in the single market or customs union but Starmer has absolutely ruled both of those out. In any case, for a start the EU made it clear that the UK could not just cherry pick what it liked and also the single market would mean accepting free movement of people whereas the customs union would prevent making independent trade deals with other countries.

To be fair to the Tories, I don't think I have seen any signs that they have been fighting with the EU, so what measures could Labour take that would represent a closer relationship?

Not attacking the EU in almost every sentence would be a good start.

 

[GillsBluenose]

So no wonder our exporters are hopping mad at a two tier system where our exports are the victims of.the EU countries doing things properly.While we.are still.trying to work out how we can check anything properly.

But surely they are only the same checking requirements that would apply if you were exporting to literally anywhere else in the world.

And no exporter has had to change their exporting method or procedure. When in the EU, they would have had to have satisfied all the thousands of EU laws, rules and directives with every export, as well as the individual requirements of the buyer/importer and now they have to do exactly the same thing, maybe with one or two extra pieces of paperwork at most.

The requirements for the checks and the time it takes are the only difference, and just aligns with the rest of world trade.

 

[shotshy]

The Tories are totally at fault on Brexit.They drove it . Initially Cameron wanted the vote to fix divisions in his party.Then they drove through a hard Brexit dispite saying getting a deal would be free and easy .
Labour would have had a more realistic approach and will not spend years fighting with each other and the EU . Looking down at everyone who is not a super rich Tory.Will see the worst defeat for any government party for very many decades.
They have shown their true colours in the last few years and the hatred for them will give those of us who are not Labour the spur to vote tactically to remove this shower hopefully for ever .
Any decent Tories were removed by Boris.That also probably removed very many decent Tory voters .The party now is a tiny runt and they will squeal very loudly when they die in a few months time.

As they say, recollections may vary but from the factual perspective, no single political event in history has had ‘history rewritten’ about it more than brexit.
These are the facts.
Every single major political party campaigned to remain.
The official Leave cohort was led by Johnson and Gove from the Tories and Stewart and Mann from Labour.
Then there was the unofficial UKIP cohort.
Pre Brexit debates were almost exclusively Blue on Blue.
Remember Johnson and Rudd going at it?
Labour opposition went pretty much missing in action. Corbyn was historically anti EU so basically kept his nut down.
After the shock defeat, it HAD to become a Tory Brexit simply because they were in power.
To ignore the result (Libdem policy) would have led to serious unrest.
So, they eventually doubled down and that led to the largest Tory majority in recent history.
Since then ….,… total fuckup.
They will be heavily defeated and rightly so.
But I’d say that the chances of our Labour government even tinkering with Brexit is very slim.
My prediction is that Starmer will be warmer to Brussels but that’s about it.
No change
Nothing to see here.
Why?
It’s because it was traditional Labour voters that swung it to Brexit.
Remember the post Brexit marches?
Almost exclusively white, middle class, traditional Tory voters who felt spurned.

 

[Vambogills]

Personally, I don’t see many negatives.
It’s just a bit different.

Maybe that should have been the Leave campaign slogan!
Essentially the people who have materially benefitted are a lot further up the food chain.
We might notice less choice and poorer food quality in supermarkets compared to a few years ago, but only if we are looking.
I'm sure we'll muddle through though.

 

[Vambogills]

Remember the post Brexit marches?
Almost exclusively white, middle class, traditional Tory voters who felt spurned.

Wrong.
Although I admit my wife and I marched as Tories sick of the divisive shift to nationlism and populism those we met were a truly mixed demographic. Coaches were shipping folk into London fom all over the UK. Labour, Greens, old, young, families, all colours. Anti Tory banners, anti Trump banners (?) All in good natured spirit and in hundreds of thousands.
Don't forget remainers represented about half of the vote but outnumbered those later marching to Leave by a massive amount.

I wish Gills had won yesterday then I probably wouldn't even be looking at this thread!